Christianity is believed to have come to Kerala in the first century AD when the Apostle Thomas, like other disciples, ventured near and far to spread the gospel in accordance with Christ’s command. There has been some speculation that the reason why St Thomas came to Kerala had less to do with converting the “locals” and was more to do with trying to convert the sizable Jewish population who lived in Kerala especially in Cochin. These Jews assimilated into the community though they continued to maintain their own faith and customs. They were welcomed and, unlike in many other countries, have never been the victims of persecution while living in India – a testament to the receptiveness of the Hindus who lived in Kerala and were willing to receive people of a different faith. Today there is still a centuries old synagogue in Cochin and a handful of Jewish families but most emigrated to Israel over the years because of better economic opportunities.
How successful St Thomas was in converting the Jews is not known but it is generally believed that he converted several prominent Brahmin families and these conversions together with others is the genesis of the Syrian Christians who live in Kerala and elsewhere around the world.
I write about this because there was a communication on a Yahoo group to which I belong consisting of mainly Asians who lived or live in East Africa. Apparently there is a debate going on in the UK about outlawing caste discrimination in Britain – yes, the old-fashioned discrimination against Dalits that is associated with India. There is opposition among some Hindu groups in Britain, to this legislation – in effect arguing that caste discrimination in the UK should not be addressed! This entire issue of seeking to achieve a “protected” status for casteism in the UK by certain Hindu groups is a whole different discussion.
But, in this context another member of the Yahoo group cited an email he received from someone known to me and several other family members which essentially said that such casteism is not just confined to Hindus and that even Christians in Kerala are guilty of the same thing.
A part of his email stated:
“But do you know Hindus are not the only ones to be blamed for this accursed practice. Even the so called upper class Christians in Kerala are guilty of this though they had given up Hinduism centuries ago claiming to have been converted by the Apostle St. Thomas!”
He went on to cite a Goan he knew from many years ago when he was a student in England who apparently asked him what caste he was. He (the Goan) claimed he was of the Brahmin caste. He goes on to say: “Wow! I was confused. My parents had never told me what caste we belonged to, not that it would have interested me in the least.”
Now, I am a Syrian Christian by birth but because of my upbringing in Mombasa, Kenya where there were only a handful of other Syrian Christian families, my involvement in the Syrian Christian faith has been minimal. However, I felt that a response was warranted to address the statements made in that email. Here is the thrust of my response:
“The email that you forwarded from S—- misstates the way that “upper class Christians”, as he puts it, classify themselves. Some of what he says does have some substance.
“I presume that by “upper class Christians” he is referring to Syrian Christians – being the descendants of those who were supposedly converted by the Apostle Thomas . In all my years, I have NEVER ONCE heard a Kerala Christian – Syrian or otherwise – referring to him/herself as belonging to so and so caste – as S—– pointed out, it would be incongruous to do so. What does happen is that the older generation talks about their antecedents and how they are descended from Brahmins, etc – incidentally such claims are not provable and are based on anecdotal information at best. Many of these claims of Brahmin antecedents are predicated on the belief that St Thomas converted several prominent Brahmin families in the first century. Some of these families are named in these anecdotes and today, if you check out the family websites of some Syrian Christian families, they claim to have descended from these converted Brahmin families. In fact, references to having come from an “ancient (Syrian Christian) family” are found so often that one wonders if there are any families left that are not ancient:)
“What Syrian Christian families frequently do is to refer to their antecedents in the context of their family names. This is pretty much the norm in conversations among them – especially the older generation – where one of the first questions asked is where one is from within Kerala and then a query as to one’s family name. The younger generation who were brought up elsewhere in India or abroad, are quite oblivious of this sort of information and often view it as being rather superfluous and inconsequential.
“My father used to say that the biggest change that had taken place in the social structure in Kerala during his years in Kenya was the diminished importance of family antecedents among Syrian Christians. It has been replaced with affluence – ie how well off is the family! He used to say it with a mixture of regret and pride – those who knew him can relate to his attitude. He was affected to his detriment by its diminished influence but he was intellectually detached enough to recognize that it meant true social progress and he used to say that it was a good thing that a form of meritocracy had taken the place of family antecedents.
“Between the high literacy rate in Kerala, the influence of the various communist governments in the state and the wholesale migration to the Gulf, there has been a non-violent social revolution which has resulted in a very limited, so called, “working class” since migrants to the Gulf send money which improves the lot of their families in Kerala enabling them not to have to do menial work. This has resulted in a flood of workers coming into Kerala from other states – especially Bihar and Tamil Nadu – to fill the vacuum left by the lack of workers in construction and other fields. In fact, the security and other hired help at the building where our flat is located in Cochin is entirely staffed by Nepalese (Gurkhas)!
“Where I do agree with S—- is that there is a pecking order here in terms of how Christians view other Christians – yes, very unchristian but it is a reality. Syrian Christians – perhaps because of their assertion and belief that they were converted by St Thomas – view themselves as a cut above other Kerala Christians. They tend to view other Kerala Christians who were either converted by the Portuguese or the missionaries with diffidence bordering on mild unspoken derision – again, quite contrary to Christian teachings. In fact, even among Syrian Christians, there is a certain amount of denominational rivalry which occasionally gets quite antagonistic. However, when it comes to marriage, denomination invariably ceases to be a factor if an eligible young man or woman appears on the scene! So, pragmatism rules when it comes to self-interest!!
“Even the example cited by S—– about the Goan who asked him about his caste, I suspect was asking him about his family’s background prior to conversion. I seem to recall the same type of exchanges on this forum by Goan Christians talking about their antecedents prior to conversion.
“Incidentally, we as a family attended an Anglican church when we were in Mombasa – the Mombasa Cathedral – because there was no Syrian Christian church in Mombasa. As a result, I personally have very little affinity with the Syrian Christian service which is long and quite formal. However those who do attend Syrian Christian churches in the DC area and in the US are quite dedicated to the welfare of the churches they attend and eager that their children imbibe some of those religious traditions. I attend a Syrian Christian service once in a while when there is a special ceremony – a baptism, memorial service, etc. In fact, when my daughter got married to an American, the service was a blend of the American church that she and her husband attend and the Syrian Christian marriage service – so there were two priests administering the rites of marriage based on the two traditions.
“One can justifiably criticize Syrian Christians about some other things but talking about which caste they belong to is not one of them!”
Tags: Apostle Thomas, brahmin families converted to Christianity, caste, Christ, Cochin, Indian Jews emigrating to Israel, Jews in Kerala, protecting caste discrimination in UK, receptiveness of Hindu faith
I don’t understand why some people got offended with my previous comments. I do not have any intension to insult Syrian Christians. In fact I like Syrians than Nairs. They are role model to all other communities in Kerala. From their backward status, they could manage to become richest and most progressive community in Kerala. This is because Syrians are ready to do any job if it is profitable. Nairs and Nambudiris have a mindset that certain professions are not suited for their aristocracy. For example, a typical Syrian girl is not ashamed to become a nurse or midwife. But majority of uppercaste youth cannot think of such jobs. In my hospital, nearly 90% of nurses are Christians from Kottayam or Tiruvalla region while majority of doctors are Nairs or Tamil Brahmins. Syrians are on the front row for NRI jobs while most Nairs look for either govt. jobs or teaching profession. This is the reason why Nair people who were once most aristocratic caste in Kerala, have declined to backwardness. On the other hand, Syrians, with their hardwork and intelligence could change their social status from backward to forward. This is called ‘Survival of the fittest’.
Dr. KP got it wrong again.
1. Malancheruvil is an agrarian Syro Malabar family and Jose Malancheruvil is an agrarian. He is not a computer literate. The other family is Malancharuvil. Get your spellings correct.
2. Pattern Search (usage)- looks suspicious that the usage of “Nambudiri and Jewish descent” is common for both the ids.
3. Pattern Search (Spelling) – Though most people usually write Nampoothiri, for some reason both use identical version – Nambudiri
4. Pattern Search (Wording) -The word “spurious” is used by both, but not by any one else
5. Jose Malancheruvil seems to know well about Dr. Aparna S Menon (another fictitious character), his field of scholarity/work etc.
6. Aparna S Menon’s Logical reasoning (and ability)is identical to that of Dr.Kp. – Aswati, Vishal, Vivek, Prakash are all Hindu names he suggests. Aswati is a star, Vishal, Vivek & Prakash are all standard/common ‘Sanskrit/Malayalam’ words denoting qualities that dr. KP lacks for sure – of being ‘accomodative’, ‘wise’ and ‘radiant with light/knowledge’.
And dr.KP, I believe I am comfortable with my present caste and status. At least I am able to acknowledge my ancestors. Would you ever be ? If you do how many would spit at you ?
panna NAIRde mole,achayanmaare patti nee anaavasyam ezhuthum alle.. pani tharunnund ninakku…
Every time when I open my PC I am eager to know what new insult or smear has been thrown by you in my direction for expressing boldly true historical facts. You think that historical facts can be suppressed by using abusive and filthy language. I would like to clarify the real position. Before 1875 all Christians, including Syrian Christians, were declared ‘Backward’ and their castes were also shown against their named in the Census Report. As for example:
Census Reports before 1875
Table 1
Thomas Backward Syrian Christian Ezhava
Matthew Backward Syrian Christian Mukkuva
John Backward Syrian Christian Pariah
CMS Missionaries brought pressure on the Census authorities not to record the previous caste of the converts by explaining to them that “Christianity was essentially a casteless religion and Christians are casteless and represent an egalitarian community that stands for international fraternity.” CMS missionaries succeeded in dropping the caste name of Syrian Christians in the Census Report of 1875
Census Report 1875
Table !!
Thomas Backward Syrian Christian
Matthew Backward Syrian Christian
John Backward Syrian Christian
.
Persecution of Christians by Nair and Brahmin jenmis, and the compulsory Oozhiyam service made the missionaries to approach the Government once again. Even women were not exempted from Oozhiyam service and Sunday attendance in churches was gravely affected. Missionaries had much clout with the Government because the Resident was British. .Due to the tireless efforts of missionaries that Syrian Christians were excluded from the backward classes list in the 1898 Census Report.
Census Report 1898
Table !!!
Thomas Syrian Christian
Matthew Syrian Christian
John Syrian Christian
Census Report of 1898 made Syrian Christians casteless. Taking advantage of the new status during the course of 3 centuries, a well orchestrated campaign was launched to claim Nambudiri caste and Jewish race.(For further details refer Sadasivan, S.N., A Social History of India, New Delhi, A.P.H.Publishing House, , 2000)
It is quite evident that before 1875 all Syrian Christians were backward with a caste name. You’re making outrageous statements about my caste. Every Indian is born with a caste. If so, what was the previous caste of your ancestors?
It is against this background that I would like to know how many Nambudiris became Christians. What was their native place? Who were the Jews who became Christians? Is there any record in the Jewish history prepared by Cochin Jews? In this context the fake claims of Thomas of Cana is to be highlighted. There are conflicting claims about his arrival, his nationality and race.
This migration of Christians, in the view of Firth, cannot be treated as historical fact. “No deeds of copper plates in the name of Thomas of Cana are now extant,” writes C.B. Firth in An Introduction to Indian Church History, “… (and) it would be rash to insist upon all the details of the story of Thomas the merchant. The only documentary evidence of the arrival of Thomas of Cana was the privileges given to Syrian Christians’ by the then ruler. The Dutch Governor, Moens, says that a Syrian Priest has confessed to him that “although he was born in Malabar, had grown up among the Syrian Christians, and even be one of their priests, nothing of the sort was known to him, so that the search for this written patent was vain…”( Ref. A. Galletti, The Dutch in Malabar, Madras ,Government Press, , 1911, p.173.) In 1806 at the suggestion of Rev. Claude Buchanan, Colonel Macauly, the British resident, ordered a careful search for them and they turned up in the record room of Cochin town. They found the tables that contained (1) the grant to Irani Cortton of Cranganore, and (2) the set of plates of the grant to Maruvan Sopi Iso of Quilon. But the table allegedly given to Thomas of Cana was not to be seen. If the Portuguese had removed it, they would have removed the other plates also. In these circumstances, the Thomas of Cana hoax was like the Piltdown hoax. It is also baseless to claim Jewish blood by using this fictitious figure.
It was only an academic discussion without any bias against any caste. I’ve repeatedly stated in all my Papers that Syrian Christians are the most cultured, educated and aristocratic community and Nambudiris cannot come anywhere near them in social status. Then why this craving to usurp Nambudiri caste? Why this online smear campaign against me by you?
Appappan
You have made a reference to cyber cell, after I said that I would like to make a complaint. All my views are backed by documentary evidences. And what is more, papers relating to this subject have already been published in Journals. Last year I submitted a Paper on this subject at South India History Congress, Kannur. But your offensive content regarding my caste and status on website with an intention to defame me is a fit case for informing cyber cell. Even to call a non-pariah, a pariah amounts to criminal intimidation. Anyway, I am not inclined to take any action as it is a general discussion.
Dr. Aparna’ is correct in her statement that Syrians were numerous in the coastal areas in the early centuries. Later on, with the coming of the Portuguese and British they occupied the inland area. . As Robin Jeffrey points out, the Ezhavas and Syrian Christians took great advantage of a commercializing economy after the British controlled Travancore and became increasingly affluent, while the once-overwhelming dominance of the Nayars gradually declined. Land was transferred from the Nayars to the Ezhavas and Christians, and a variety of castes and communities began to demand more jobs in the modernized administration, challenging the monopoly of the Nayars and the Brahmin (Robin Jeffrey, The Decline of Nayar Dominance: Society and Politics in Travancore, 1847-1908 New Delhi: Vikas Publishing House, 1976, pp249,265-9.)
Ha ha.. It is ‘mon’ not ‘mol;, but he fancy to be one from Nair or a Nasrani. See he takes wish to be associated & addressed with higher castes – Jose Malancheruvil, Aparna S Nair, Koshy Kurien, Ajith Kurien, …
See how cleverly he manipulates your goods to bads ? It is not just Nursing, but Teaching & Banking professions are also overwhelmingly held by the Syrian Christians. And you know the reason why ? 60% of the hospitals in this state are run by the Syrian Christians. Majority of the Schools & Educational institutions are owned by Syrian Christians. You know why malayalam word for school is ‘pallikoodam’ ? And all the Banks, with the exception of SBT, Nedungadi & Dhanalakhmi were also Christian institutions. See their entrepreneurial skills & spirit. And it is natural to have the community members to take up the jobs in there. Also see that the media was exclusively owned by the Syrians. The first ever malayalam daily was Deepika. The second one, the Malayala Manorama when it started was blessed by the King and gifted the Royal emblem – see how the untouchable, low caste, sudras get treated by the King ?
It is not just health care, but education and empowerment is also part of the Christian duty and you have seen how the Christians, i.e Syrian Christians to be precise empowered the Kerala community ? Health Care, Education, Banking & Finance and Media ?. If anyone is to be credited for the high HDI that the state and its people boasts of, it is the Syrian (inclusive of Catholic,Malankara,Jacobite,Chaldean & Marthoma) Church and its community. And the community should take pride in the fact that it has achieved all these with out any reservation or other allowances.
When did Nursing became a sudra occupation ? Not more than 15 years for sure. Who said Nairs are reluctant to take up a Nursing career ? Caring for the sick is an obligation for every christian, regardless of your backgrounds Mr.KP. Syrian Christians, Latin Christians and even Pariah converts have these obligations. It is part of our ethos & values.
In your hospital there are only 2 doctors ? Surprising. What you doing there ? Learning history ?
“Nairs and Nambudiris have a mindset that certain professions are not suited for their aristocracy.” – “An autorickshaw driver was killed in an accident when his autorickshaw collided with the car of Minister Manjalamkuzhi Ali at Bernard Junction in Kalavoor in Alappuzha at 6.30 pm on Friday. He is identified as Ramachandran Nair (63) of Kalavoor, Alappuzha. Ramachandran Nair was rushed to Alappuzha General Hospital, but later died.”
Anyway I have finished Barbosa. It was disgusting to read about the way you treated women in the past to be honest.
Nursing has degraded to a Sudra occupation only because the Church (&other hospital managements) had introduced practices which effectively amounts to slavery or can induce similar situations. See how history is repeating isnt it DR ?
Where on earth is your hospital ? I thought atleast 30 percent of the doctors are also from this community. Shame on you BS
A Yeshuratnam, I am aware you have been commenting under different user ids on this blog.
I have access to information, including the IP addresses, of individuals who comment on this and other postings. So your attempt to use fake ids in an attempt to demonstrate that others support your point of view is easily exposed.
Since you profess to be an academic, you should be particularly mindful of the need for objectivity and intellectual honesty in any discourse. Posting under a fake id, and especially an id implying the individual is a Christian who supports your position, makes your claims of intellectual scholarship rather hollow.
If you are confident as to the substance of your position, you should not feel the need to create fake ids to show that others support your position. Let your arguments stand on their own merit.
“You have made a reference to cyber cell, after I said that I would like to make a complaint. All my views are backed by documentary evidences. And what is more, papers relating to this subject have already been published in Journals. Last year I submitted a Paper on this subject at South India History Congress, Kannur.” – Any one can publish a paper on any subject. You are not an intellectual.
” But your offensive content regarding my caste and status on website with an intention to defame me is a fit case for informing cyber cell. Even to call a non-pariah, a pariah amounts to criminal intimidation.”
What offense have I made ? Calling a non-pariah a pariah amounts to criminal intimidation ? I never said you are not a pariah ? Have I ? All I said is you looks a pariah convert. That is the truth. (But you think you are handsome, but I would excuse you as Beauty is in the eye of the ..). What about calling 3.3 million of us untouchables and pariah converts ?
“Anyway, I am not inclined to take any action as it is a general discussion.” – But you dont need to feel relieved. I will give you a month to cleanup and apologize. This is not the UMMAKKI that you had shown me. I am dead serious about this. Your posting yesterday is amounts to character assassination and maligning of our community. Your actions amounts to libel and evidently you are engaged in a smear campaign, using multiple ids, resembling upper caste names – Syrian Christians, Nairs & North Indian upper castes names. Your are doing this with criminal intent. You are engaged engineering communal tension. See what Jose has written just now, mistaking your fake id to be a real person.
“It is quite evident that before 1875 all Syrian Christians were backward with a caste name. You’re making outrageous statements about my caste. Every Indian is born with a caste. If so, what was the previous caste of your ancestors?”
I have already furnished my ‘Kulam’ for I have one & I can boast of one. As a ‘research Scholar’ You need to search about it for further information. I would recommend you to read Niranam Grandhavari or search these family names you you will get your answer. Certainly you will hate me for a reason. And let me remind you that the body never lies. As I have already stated I am comfortable with my present status. But you havent revealed your past. Would kindly enlighten us a bit ?
“Census Report of 1898 made Syrian Christians casteless. Taking advantage of the new status during the course of 3 centuries, a well orchestrated campaign was launched to claim Nambudiri caste and Jewish race” – So Niranam Grandhavari was written after 1898 ?. And the DNA evidences are all corrupt and cooked up, not just by Dr. Mini & Dr.Manavendra Singh (He must also be a corrupt crook as he must be an upper caste – Jat) but also by the FTDNA.
“(For further details refer Sadasivan, S.N., A Social History of India, New Delhi, A.P.H.Publishing House, , 2000)” – Good reference. A book written in year 2000 by one of the worst Savarna Hater, a maniac with full of imaginations and ether stories. – ” There is no community in India to compare with the Ezhavas or Tiyyas of Kerala. In their Social Experience they are close to the Jats, in their sense of justice and democratic culture, they are inspired by the British middle-classes and in their intellectual expression, in spite of the oppression they suffered, they have a parallel in the Jews”. SN Sadasivan is a boastful fantasizer, with his typical slave mentality socked in victim hood.
“for expressing boldly true historical facts” – I have seen your boldness enough, your way of expressing the historical facts about the Kundara Proclamation, your boldness in deserting & denying your ancestors to take another, your boldness when you pretends to be of higher caste using fake IDs that belongs to others and your Cyber cell Ummakki when I contented you.
“You think that historical facts can be suppressed by using abusive and filthy language” – But you think using media manipulation, twisting of historical facts and doctoring of evidences and using multiple ids you can thrust your thesis of hate and lowliness up on us ?
“CMS Missionaries brought pressure on the Census authorities not to record the previous caste of the converts by explaining to them that “Christianity was essentially a casteless religion and Christians are casteless and represent an egalitarian community that stands for international fraternity.””
You yourself have disproved your theory multiple times. CMS missionaries werent part of the Syrian Church. They werent working for us.
“Census Reports before 1875
Table 1
Thomas Backward Syrian Christian Ezhava
Matthew Backward Syrian Christian Mukkuva
John Backward Syrian Christian Pariah”
Which census report is this ? Not enough information. The names are indicative enough for they are the CMS converts (Syrians untill the 50s used traditional names). Presumably you are mentioning about the Census of 1836. Not surprising to see that these all three were still alive in 1898, especially when the average life expectancy was 40-50.
Would you kindly share the links ?
I think you will soon have an opportunity to take up the OOZHIYAM service.
To Tj
It is not false IDs. Any number of pseudonyms can be used, including the word ‘anonymous.’ Email and website are to be genuine.
To
Appappan
I have discussed all details in an exhaustive manner. I have no further time to discuss the same matter again and again. The matter is closed.
The ongoing blog on Christianity and Caste I feel is not in good direction. Most of the Issues are with out evidences and there is no chance to get more proof. The St.Thomas edition itself is a myth. It is a belief of St.Thomas Christians and we respect it. Similarly Syrian Christian aristocratic status/ caste status too depend on our practices or conventions. As a researcher, Dr.Yeshuratnam may be wrong but he is also a believer. Researchers may not support believers sometimes and viceversa.
This type of differences of opinion are bound to emerge when one thinks over such things. We cant rule out any theory as we lack in evidences. Therefore dont try to crucify either Dr.Yeshuratnam or any respondent.
Each view is correct when we think it in his or her stand. We cant prevent this. We have to adjust the mindset to be tolerant mature and reasonable. Even experts write illogically and irrationally.
I recall the content of the book return by Middleton Murray entitled THE BETRAYAL OF CHRIST BY THE CHURCHES in which it was concluded that historical christianity was the religion of a pre-industrail society and he indicts the modern machine civilisation as a deniel of the reality of Christian society national and international. This is unavoidable. There is no 100 percent objectivity and there is no historian/ researcher objective par excellence.
I was out of comment for some days as I went for a trekking to a beautiful fort captured by shivaji…..16 km walking one side n climbing 75degree steep slope without any ropes or safety..wonderfull experience…but I went for an archeological study too….coming to d point …I saw Thomas Joseph(TJ) Sir has deleted some posts due to d use of offensive language…I stopped when APARNA(R U YESHURATHNAM???) commented …now I think I should not keep quite…APARNA madam,well u said all Syrians r Backward converts???I do agree some have been n wat is bad about it n Dats Christianity a big n great thing u really won’t be able to know unless u experience It,one thing-u have to believe in St.Thomas(d most ignored greatest traveller n preacher)….if u ask me r u a Syrian Christian its a Clear “No” I m nt but u ask me if I hv a Syrian blood ???.Yes I have??in belief n in d union of Jesus n as My mother is a Syrian from a very big ( rich affluent businessmen n sometimes governors n ambassadors in India)…I m nt revealing d family name but if u r aware u got which family r8…but I m a simple man born to a Kshatriya (Rajput) ,yes my dad is a Kerala Rajput who is now a Christian …name Veera Simhar(Veer Singh) n is now a part of Marthoma Syrian Church converted to Christianity as “Thomas Samuel” ….My request is to add him in d list of new converts of ur list….but I know u won’t …ha ha ha…dat would prick ur ego I know….n about Nair System let me not say…… We r not Shudra Nairs elevated to Kshatriyahood but is a Real Kshatriyan ,we wer patrilineal…as I m born n brought up outside kerala ,n after generations when my descendents claim of a Kshatriya origin may b Doctors in history like u counterclaim n prove them wrong n even If I make some proofs now to document them may b scholars like u say that’s a fabrication….I really don’t hv complexes of caste n creed…truth…but when history is presented people like u should nt weave it in ur own sense…rather research why r dey saying it…may b u r supported by ur moron egoism…n I agree dat kerala was a mental asylum…but being a history researcher don’t be sectarian…atlast my father did nt convert by force but by his self interest n love…nor for a caste upgradation nor caste mobility but for mobility of becoming a part of d class…(It was words n speech of Mar Chrysotam Thirumeni he was influenced,d reason how I got linked to this blog in search of him..d humblest man I ever saw.)…..In my certificates my caste is kept as Kshatriya Syrian Marthomite….an alien thing for people like u…n Madam if u ask my dad where he had a membership then its KSHATRIYA KSHEMA SABHA…n not NSS(NAIR SERVICE SOCEITY) …I think u very well got d difference of NAIR n a RAJPUT for whoz a REAL KSHATRIYA???Don’t be ignorant of ur past n attack on others …k ..
Royal Nasrani
Who was d Nairs,Ambalavaasis etc…let me not comment as sometime d use of d word such as exploring d history of d people practicing “prima noctis” by d vedic religious heads will lower my will really into d history…don’t let me peep into a past by asking u how ur males did enjoy an upper stratum.???infact of Sambandhams…????is moral values greater or is it prestige of leaving wife for prey to someone n involve in making pennies???APARNA…better be conscious wen u claim …no don’t take dis as a f8 between Nairism n Suriyanis …but Rajputs n Nairs….See what ur husband will of wen a NAMBOODIRI approaches for u…is it pride or caste upliftment….no don’t say Panicker is an Ezhava its a term used for all Kalari trainers…its a use for d martial artists…in all castes..ask how ur male went for f8 n y u womens agreed to Sambandhams???.did u madam agree fo Sambandham???yes or no..den speak… APARNA doctor…
Mr. Royal Nasrani,
I did not get your point. What did you want to say? Please avoid SMS language when you write serious matters. That itself shows your amateur behaviour. As far as I can see there is nothing called “Kshatriya Syrian Marthomite”. Can you upload a scanned copy of you Caste certificate? When you make tall claims, just remember that you will be asked for evidences. If you can’t prove your claims, you will become a laughing stone instead. Also I don’t think “Kshatriya Kshema Sabha” will give membership to any Christians. KKS is not a caste organisation like SNDP or NSS. It is a family-based association of Royal families in Kerala. It has only a membership of around 25,000. No rajputs are given membership to KKS. You and your father will be given membership if you belong to any Royal families. But in no way if you are Christians. What “Sambandham” and other things have to do with this discussion? This article is not about Nairs. But about Syrian Christians. It is not a matured behaviour to attack others personally. If I was a Brahmin, then I know you would have criticized Brahmin community instead of Nair community. If you do not have anything to say, accept defeat. Please do not try to change the subject.
Mr. Yeshuratnam,
I have only one question to ask. In all probability you are a converted Christian.Syrians or Anglo Indians will not have ‘Ratnam’ in their names. So you are a convert, right? My question is this:
Why you and your ancestors are not Syrians?
If CMS missionaries gave “Syrian Christian” status to all untouchable converts, then why there are still Dalit Christians like you? Why your ancestors were exempted by CMS missionaries?
Madam that’s wat u cannot believe…if m not an sms freak nor a Nair opposite human..But about d Kshatriya KSHEMA Sabha…u need to c my post before my dad married my mom… my dad was a member as a Kerala Rajput is born member of it ,if u refuse it …I m least bothered…n about d “Kshatriya Syrian Christian ” in my certificate …it was my fathers personal interest wen I was born…He was asked of d caste of his child (me) n what he thought he wrote in paper..n my certificates do have it..as I m not born in kerala I hv dat in my caste row or column a real truth….u should know it dat it was not for caste claims n not for anything Dats related to whatever u think…it was just to show that I was born to a Kshatriyan dad born to a Syrian woman..Podi pulle…Ente illathu innu nee varuvannel ninte mole njan line adikum…Ente pappa Thomas Anne sathyam…Ente mummy Mariamma annel sathyam…Ente certificate ninakku venno??? Let me know ur mail I.d I will send a scan copy yeshu christhuvanne sayhyam…Dad Anne sathyam…bcoz I m born to my dad KERALA RAJPUT n not to a sambhandham Namboori…APARNA Menone….Sambhandhi…prima noctisinte implementere…Ente achane question cheyyaan nee aaradi??pulle…
Justin Simhar
Dr.T.P.Sankarankutty Nair, you make some valid points.
The focus of my original posting on this subject did not pertain to the historical basis for St Thomas vis-a-vis Syrian Christians or even whether Syrian Christians descended from Nambudhris.
My issue with A. Yeshuratnam is that when he is presented with evidence that runs counter to his views, he will dismiss such evidence as fabricated, forged or from questionable sources. He has essentially come to a conclusion with regard to the historical background of Syrian Christians and will only consider information that supports his point of view. For someone who claims to be an academic and a teacher, his lack of objectivity is striking.
This is quite apart from the fact that he posts using multiple ids supporting his position – including ids of ostensibly Christian individuals – in an attempt to give credence to his point of view.
The late Daniel Patrick Moynihan who was a U.S. Senator, American ambassador to India and a renowned intellectual said:
“Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.”
Yeshuratnam would do well to keep this in mind.
Kshatriya Kshema Sabha is for royal people…not for shudras nor nairs ( shudras)..TJ sir if u hv a pdf display in this forum den let me know n let me post my status…not to prove anything but to say dat dees kinda relationships r involved…I m now ashamed dat a shudra nair (elevated to Kshatriyahood is terming my dad as a fool.???my pappaas love for my mom was greater dan any caste morons questioning me…dhairyamundel I will say my illams name n my fone no…n my address…madam can u contact me???YES ALL HV TO KNOW ME N MY DAD…ONLY THEN .
.”PRIMA NOCTIZED NAIRS BY A NAMBOODIRI WILL KNOW DAT DER was a real Kshatriyan …y r u Nairs not agreeing to gave d truth …Sambandhamites…???
A Yeshuratnam, you are either being obtuse or are missing the point.
Of course, anyone can post using any id they wish including remaining anonymous – that is not the point. But for you to post on this blog using the ids of ostensibly Syrian Christian individuals who purportedly support your position is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.
Your intention is obvious: you want readers to come away with the impression that even some “Syrian Christians” who are posting are in agreement with your point of view. Of course those “Syrian Christians” who are posting are none other than yourself using a different user id!
If you feel that there is a solid foundation to your point of view, then there is no need for the type of subterfuge that you have used.
Your arguments will stand or fall on its own merits and not on repeating your assertions using other user ids to convey the impression that others agree with you.
Royal Nasrani, re your comment: “I saw Thomas Joseph(TJ) has deleted some posts due to (the) use of offensive language”, please note that I have not deleted any comments by anyone.
There is a link “Older Comments” at the bottom of this page which includes prior comments.
Dr. Aparna S Menon, you are certainly correct that Syrian Christians to this day follow some Hindu customs and traditions. But because they do so does not decry their antecedents.
Your point about conversion by the Portuguese is unlikely because if that were the case the converted would be Roman Catholics – as you see in Goa. For the most part, the only Roman Catholics in Kerala are arguably the Latin Catholics
Re the use of Hindu names within my family and extended family, these things go in phases. My siblings and I mostly have Western biblical names. My grandparents generation had Malayalee biblical names like Eapen, Mariamma, etc. The move to the more conventional Hindu names took place over the last 50 years or so. I am not sure as to the reasons for this.
My daughter has a Muslim name – because we liked the name and it was a variation of her baptismal name “Sarah”. My sister, Ashwathi, was given that name because that was her “nakshathram” but that is not her baptismal name. The latest trend seems to be to name children with very Western names such as “Judy”, “Sharon”, etc. – given time this will change, I have no doubt.
But more to the point, associating trends in names with one’s antecedents and the length of those antecedents is questionable.
Here in the US there are some Hindus who name their children with names that are either Western or they end up being modified into a Western sounding name just so that they can fit in better. The Asians – Chinese, Japanese, etc – also do the same thing frequently. They use first names that are Western and maintain their Asian last names.
TJ Sir ,
Ok…I was commenting to make people nuetral,n I m ashamed I got involved with pagans …Thirumeni’s love was/is on my father so I don’t think I m worst in my comments…as indirectly I m blessed ..I love my dad who turned a Christian bcoz of his love of my mom n due to d greatest humblest human being Chrysostam Thirumeni……please listen his speech all u friends n enemies of me …leave it leave all worries….I know u all r humans in draculla form …but b human as I said for one moment n realize what is lord d Christ…Yeshu Apacha ellavaarodum karuna thonnename…Ente deshyavum knowledgum(until it hurts others ) control cheyyename..
APARNA Doesn’t know anything…
she had her prima noctis wid a NAMBOODIRI an as he said Into her ears of not believing…d Suriyanis …her husband was a MAHOUT waiting besides her doors to defend her n her NAMBOODIRI from any external disturbances….wat a Kshatriyahood R8 APARNA. BY UR HUSBAND …u question RAJPUTS??? U …r not a doctor but a dogtor…”NAAY err”…my pity for ur dark n worse past ..but no one can change it ..d prima noctis offered to u n ur ancestors…I m ashamed wen I open warriors of kerala page n show it to non keralites…Malayala Kshatriyas…is it not an exaggeration???Madam….c I m just 27 den wat will be my knowledge @ 50’s …???.just think …I hv a doctorate n couple of degrees too…I m young …wanna try…???No not wat u thought but about me in my intellectual part I meant…;-)
Nasraniji,
Who said Nairs are Kshatriya ? Only they themselves. Will any Khshatriya or Brahmin allow such a claim by a non-threaded caste ? Nairs were never Khshatriya, but Sudra. A Dwija will have the sacred thread. If not, he isnt a twice born.
It is a historical fact that Orthodox brahmins wouldnt touch a Nair, (with the exception of women they might had Sambandham). And havent you heard ‘Nayaruthottalashudham Nasrani thottal shudham” ?
Aparna S Menon, you did invite this talk when you said “This is because Syrians are ready to do any job if it is profitable. Nairs and Nambudiris have a mindset that certain professions are not suited for their aristocracy. For example, a typical Syrian girl is not ashamed to become a nurse or midwife. “. So why running away from it now ?
Did you had a look at Barbosa ? Being a responsible scholar in history shouldnt you do some home work before lecturing others on morality, social customs & practices ? Have you gone through any of the numerous books that describe the social customs that prevailed in the Malabar ? Would you be able to do a comparison on the dignity of women in both the communities ? See how dignified were they, their dressing style, chastity, ?? You had been accusing our women of ‘not having reservations while taking up a profession’. Could you explain why the Nair/Menon women werent ashamed to be film/Theatre actresses while the Nasrani women didnt dare to venture in ? See, we also had the reservations.
And let me remind you that the Nairs, just like the Nasranis arent a monolithic community. They include people from all background and races. I know Nairs who are black like hell. I know Nairs who look worse that pariahs (Nairs from the southern travancore, especially neyyatinkara etc). Nairs to the north (that is Menons, Nambiar etc) are comparatively fairer in complexion and have more attractive features. How can you explain this huge difference ? Does it have any correlation to the fact the Namboothiris were mostly concentrated in the malabar region ?
And your boast of heraldry and aristocracy, are you saying that Latha Nair and party are all Nasranis ? (because they were ready to do anything)
Like the Nasranis Nairs also have auto drivers, coolies, peons, menials, petty shop owners, shop assistants, clerks, nurses, not just bankers and Industrialist as you think. Do you know that the Crown prince of Chempakasseril Royal family was working as an assistant in a medical shop ? And he is a crown prince, a Khshatriya, an aristocrat. How about his aristocracy and lineage which no Nair can claim ?
You says “Syrians are on the front row for NRI jobs ” I think they are qualified for it. Isnt it ? Look at any Engineering College or medical college, Syrian Christians are as numerous as the Nairs while they shouldnt take that many as for every Syrian there are 1.7 Nairs in this country. Do you know the past of PNC menon ? How he reached Oman, what occupations he took up there initially ?
You say “Also I don’t think “Kshatriya Kshema Sabha” will give membership to any Christians.”, especially when he said ” where he had a membership then its KSHATRIYA KSHEMA SABHA”, now this is a typical KP logic & style of interpretation. I recommend you to have some good reading on English grammar and the usage of tenses
Majority of the Nairs & Nasranis were middle class. and an equal number were ‘well to do’ and of ‘poor’ status. similarly a smaller percent were ‘Rich/Affluent’ and of ‘very poor’ status. True aristocracy were very limited, a miniscule group. But certainly there were 100 Nair families for every 5-6 Syrian Christian Families that had aristocracy (My opinion, just an assumption based on the little information that I have gathered about he past, not based on any research). This is explained by the 1. Concentration of the Nasrani in the Cochin, Vadakkancore & Thekkencore kingdoms & 2. Social/political upliftment of nairs through the centuries that followed the demise of the Chera (Kulasekhara) dynasty by virtue of customs like sambandhams that cemented their position in the system.
Fact – In tamil nadu, if some one boasts of being a Nair, the would be looked down by the Tamils. Reason – Nair entrepreneurs in Tamil Nadu were by majority the proprietors of Tea stalls. Even in kerala, Tea stalls & Chayakkadas were monopoly of Nairs. But the Nasrani community looked down occupations like this, for example a cook/Sheff is sarcastically called ‘cockie’ or ‘kushinippani’ by Nasranis.
Goodnight. I am tired of boasting.
APARNA,
My father is a born Kshatriya (even if u counterclaim dat a Kshatriya Christian never exists,he s a born Kshatriyan ,n Dats creating flames beneath ur …….let me not tell)…n fo me now I m nt a Kshatriya but a Satya Christianeee…can u offend if I keep my children’s caste as SATYA CHRISTIANY..???I said I m out of Kerala Syllabus…but ur attacks r insane so I could nt stop…I hope sectarians will include my Rajput dad in list…Nairism is a degree as to me bcoz wen marriage alliances came my way I got d stratum of what all differences a Nair hierarchy has…so better stay silent or ill display history(n let not people be offended) …n about d KSS n NSS differentiation….let me not claim…u better scroll on sites…n one thing ..if u question a love…again I will b d most worst specie…so don’t mix ur intellectual theory coinciding love…let both go Der own way…or u will face me …
The Simhars
APARNA,
Tamil Padam Nairs of travancore – all dark,men look like veerappans,Illathu Nairs- All middle class ,govt jobs ,chayakkada,Padamangangalam Nair- Same like Tamil padams,Newspaper men ,Kiryathil Nairs- Some look good nd girls r prone to modernization copying suriyanis HR,Bussiness,Politics etc,Menons- Some succesfull entrepreneurs n also till Tyre works,Maraars- silently disclose dat dey r ambalavaasis or Nairs dey don’t know,Unnithans- No financial knowledge but educated n has land,Kurups- Gud beings amongst d worst as martial arts teach them to b tolerant,Swaroopathil Nairs- some counterclaim dat d other s just boasting…boys luk uneducated but girls r very very beautiful,Pisharodys- Refuse to say dey r nairs but r sober people,Villakkithala Nairs- wen dey say to non Nairs dey boast of a nair,but amongst Nairs dey keep quite,Veluthedathu Nairs- Now most of them do oppose Nairism n has turned to Pentecostal churches …girls r unbeatable in beauty…even Kiryathil girls feel inferior in lukss…
Madam….howz ma study…many hv approached me… my nallu is rohini n a bit dark n music oriented ,so better stay silent…den about d DR. part I m too …n age s less..not married so…….ok..
Aparna,
KKS is for d real Arya Kshatriyas n Samanthan Kshatriyas ,as we hv negligible amount of Rajput in kerala we used to marry from d north n later on from surnames consisting of Varma,Kartha,Thambi etc …my grandmother s a Varma but patrilineal wen she married my grandpa..n many from KKS n even Nairs approached my dad most often for marriage but what to do he said “.if u like one u can marry” n many did accept o marry in a Christian way or he said u marry a suriyani bcoz atleast she ll teach d Veda vakyam to ur children…n I m still in search…Aparna Madam r u married???I will teach u how to b a woman n human …den about rajputs stamina…I said I went for trekking last day covering 16kms of steep n slippery slope in just 2 .35 hours ….great na???n about sms language …I m not old madam so unknowingly it happens…
TJ:
I just finished reading your family history. ” Avirah and Sridevi (or Maria as she was now known) wanted to move to a bigger house with more conveniences and centrally placed. When Sridevi approached her father about it, the matter was taken up with the Raja. They found a place which belonged to a Nair family called Idacheril. Even if there was any opposition from that family or any of the Nair families around since it was the wish of the Raja, the matter ended there. The young couple were moved to a house on a property called Adangapurathu, which was located between the families of Idacheril and Mecheril.”
So you agree that your family got land from a Nair family. You also agree that your family history goes back only to 15th century. You don’t claim a 2000 years as other people do. May be it is an exaggeration that your ancestors Krishnan, Devu, Sridevi, etc were Bhattathiris. In actuality, they could be Ezhavas or Viswakarmas. The connection with Edappally royal family also might be a later addition by some imaginative family historian.
Your website’s name “Joseph Clan” is really funny. “The Joseph clan are now scattered all over the globe! Family members live in India, USA, Great Britain & Australia!!” How silly? Is it your family name? How will you become a “clan” if your grandfather’s name was”Joseph”. If your grandfather’s name was “Benjamin” or “Abraham”, will you become “Benjamin Clan” or “Abraham Clan”? What about the millions of people named “Joseph”? To which “clan” do they belong?
I just mentioned Hindu names as an example, there are many other cultural symbols among Syrians such as use of Nilavilakku, Thali, Manthrakodi, Margamkali (which originated from Mangalam Kali of Pulayas), etc.
You say “the only Roman Catholics in Kerala are arguably the Latin Catholics”. This is totally wrong. The majority of Syrian Christians in Kerala are members of Syro-Malabar church. They are Roman Catholics. Read a little bit of history to know how was Syro-Malabar church formed. Until 1880s, there were only Roman Catholics, no Syrian Catholics /Latin Catholics. Around 1880s, some people in Catholic church started to claim Syrian status and they threatened to leave Catholic church if they are not given separate dioceses. Due to the fear of loosing believers, Rome was forced to accept their demand. In 1887, Pope Leo XIII by his brief “Quod Jam Pridem” formed two vicariates for Syrian Christians. There were no certificates or SSLC books those days to prove one’s caste. So whoever claimed to be Syrians, were given entry to these newly formed vicariates without validating their claims. These two vicariates were developed later to become today’s Syro-Malabar church. So the fact is this: most of today’s Syro-Malabar Christians are descendants of those newly converted Latin Christians who falsely claimed to be Syrians.
Appappan:
You said “Who said Nairs are Kshatriya ? Only they themselves.” Now let me ask who says Syrian Christians are Nambudiris or Jews? Only they themselves. Will any Brahmin or Jew allow such a claim by a dark-skinned group ? They are simply Dravidians.
Here in this forum, we are discussing the origin of Syrian Christians, not Nair women and their social customs. Suppose you are a doctor. You ask you patient “Do you smoke?” or “Do you drink liquor?” then he replies with “Your father smokes” or “Your mother drinks liquor” what will be your reaction? This is the same way you are reacting here. Is it an adult behavior to attack opponents by defaming their caste?
You said “I know Nairs who are black like hell. I know Nairs who look worse that pariahs (Nairs from the southern travancore, especially neyyatinkara etc).” Here you have mistaken pseudo-Nairs with real Nairs. Most of these so-called ‘Nairs’ of southern Travancore such as Neyyatinkara, Parasala, etc are either Tamil Padam Nairs or Chakkala Nairs. They do not have any connection with real Nairs (Malayala Kshatriya). There are many castes like them who claim a fake Nair-hood. They are backward castes who are enlisted in govt.’s reservation lists. Example for such castes are Vilakkithala Nairs, Tamil Padam/Padamangalam Nairs, Veluthedath Nairs, Chakkala Nairs, etc. No real Nair would never consider them as Nairs even though they claim themselves to be Nairs (like Syrians claim to be Nambudiris). Anyone can make such claims. An Ezhava can claim they are “Ezhavath Nair” and put a Nair surname at the end of their name. That does not make them Nairs. As you said, there are many tea-stall owners (not only in Tamil Nadu but also in Kerala, especially in Trivandrum and Kollam districts), auto drivers, porters, peons, menials, etc. with surnames “Nair” or “Pillai”. The truth is all these people are those backward pseudo-Nairs mentioned above.
Chempakasseril Royal family is not a Kshatriya dynasty, it is a Nambudiri dynasty like Edappally. Read history.
Justin Sambavar:
1) What “Prima Noctis” has to do here? It was a Christian custom prevailed among Christians living in Christian countries. Did it ever exist in India or among Nairs? Any evidence?
2) There is no need of a PDF display facility. Upload your scanned copy to either Imageshack or TinyPic and provide URL here. We all can verify your claim then.
3) Yesterday I had a telephonic conversation with Vijay (Vijaya Varma), who is my relative and General Secretary of Kshatriya Kshema Sabha. He said he knows each and every families in KKS personally. I asked Vijay if they give membership to Rajputs and he responded like “No way, there are thousands of Marwari people residing in Cochin. They come and go. Their roots are not known. We can’t accept them into this. This is a family club for Royal families in Kerala.”
4) I am married to a person whose father was not a fickle-minded idiot who will leave his beliefs for some beautiful woman. So no chance for you, Mr. Sambavar.
5) If you keep having this kind of behavior everywhere, I don’t think you will reach 50’s. 🙂
Dog’s & Men- on -Aparna ,
Enikku ivide cheetah villikaan ariyathathu kondalla ketto…pakshe ninne polathe allkaarude karanam veruthe oru caste veruthe nanam kedum…and I don’t want to do it…..I think some achayan ninakku panni thannittpoyiyennu…Pinne nee enthu prove cheyyana enikkonnum ninnepole kazhuthakalude mumbil prove cheyyanda..Pinne nee ente certicicate kittiyaal udane paranjathellaam thirichedukkum alledi???…Then u r referring me to sambavar ha ha ha ha ..i am not born in Kerala so I do not feel bad if u tag me with a caste…I am not born in the mental asylum ….hahahaha….
1) So “Sambandhams” did never exist and it’s a hypothesis right madam???Who gave you this doctorate degree???
2) I will surely upload Appu darling, and if I upload will you kindly get lost from this blog or believe that something happens contrast to your logic?????Wont u say that even my certificate is fabricated.And whats your agenda behind proving me ????Podi pulle
3)You called Vijaya Varma), who is my relative and General Secretary of Kshatriya Kshema Sabha.Ha ha ha Pathirathriyil avalkentha chorichillo ee kaaryamokke chorinjondirikkan….hahahahahaha….And madam Kerala Rajputs are Malayalees .we speak a different dialect…..I came to know u don’t posses any doctorate degree….vivaram illa alle..Kochu kalli….
4)Edi erappalli podi naaye ninte thala vetti soup njan pattikku kodukkum ente achanem ammem patti enthelum paranjal…I will report this to the Cyber cell if u abuse my dad and mom …any other things u say butdont dare to comment on my dada-mom ……….. Shavame…
5)Ninte kettiyon kellavan chanduvinte kalamadi ippol kazhiyaan pokunne….
Final Podi pulle ….Chorichil kooduthal annengil ninte bharthavine kondu choriyu…podi shavame….Etho achayan pandengo ninakkittu thaangi alledi…pulle
Aparna give your no…..and prove that you are Aparna then i will prove me….True.Ithu veruthe parayunnathalla …
Ah, “leave the wise to wrangle” as Khayyam said. All this mudslinging and fabricated claims on both sides is amusing, but on a deeper level it shows the insecurity and the deep desire to be part of a group, a “superior” group, a “hammer than a nail”. This has been going on for millenia – catholics killing protestants, sunnis vs shias, hutus and tutsis, serbs and croats, you get the idea. All this is based on the ego. The Upanishads talk about renouncing the ego. So does Paul when he says, “I live, yet not I…….”
I’m a syrian christian. But if you want to call me a pariah, that’s okay with me. I won’t let these man-made definitions stick to me as I know my spiritual roots. Like Peter Sellers said in “The Party” when asked, “Who the hell do you think you are?”, he replied, “In India we don’t think who we are, we know who we are”.
Aparna ,
On your reply to Appapans post ….
You say all of them are Pseudo nairs ,so is the case with newly backward converted Christians, many will claim pseudoism …that doesnt imply that they are Syrians ….no…What about St.Thoams mission??his established churches ??Nasrani Crosses etc.
And you should not be so aggressive as you are a woman and has a doctorate…is that pseudoism Madam ???
I don’t want to get diverted from the topic again you were successful last day …Every one has a control limit ….but try not be intensively sectarian at least when you research history, a small amount of caste consciousness every one posses…but that should be up to a tolerant level ,too much is alarming and shows your animal instincts towards social structure and interdependency amongst them..Try to be a human ..I never did intend to insult any caste or creed as everything has a charm in itself…I said several times that I am interested in “St.Thomas Mission”. And in one of your previous comments you said me to accept defeat ????Hahahaha …for what ???? I did not come here for war ….I don’t think I posses a personal hatred towards anyone or any culture ..No.
RN
Yatha Raja Thatha Praja
———————–
G Sukumaran Nair – NSS General Secretary was a peon. (Aristocratic peon ? Nay.. Sir Name is Nair. Then he must be a pseudo-Nair. )
3 years back there was great uproar in Kerala when G.Sudhakaran, the outspoken State Minister for Cultural affairs (+ Cooperative sector) called then then Assistant General Secretary of NSS a glorified peon.
Let me repeat it so that you dont miss it – YATHA RAJA THATHA PRAJA
Aparna S. menon, I see how tactful you are. I will reply later in much detail. But to me in all probability it looks like you are fishing in a piss pond. Good for you.
Before I go let me tell you one more thing, that NAIRS had always been referred to as SUDRAS by the europeans in their letters and books. And the state manuals do refer them as Sudra. You were never a Kshatriya and never ever be one. That is the truth, the sole truth. Get it to your head.
I feel pity at your boasts. Please dont use that K word again (‘Kshatriya’), you are not worth it.
ONLY A THREADED COMMUNITY can claim dwija. And you dont belong there for sure.
I will bring the proofs from numerous books written in the past centuries, where the NAIRS are SUDRA
And you said “Will any Brahmin or Jew allow such a claim by a dark-skinned group ? They are simply Dravidians.”
honestly I havent asked any, but I have gone through numerous books where the forigners suggests that though a large portion of the syrian christians should have been from Ninaveh and Bagdad, St Thomas should have converted many jews. Definitely it is not just the Nasranis who feel so, but others too.
And believe me I will bring the references. I dont boast with out substance. And i never run away when confronted nor do I back off from conversations when short of answers, like you and Dr.KP do. I feel that you shouldnt run away like a coward if you really wanna be a Kshatriya (though you will never be one you can still pretend to be one to satify your egos). Good luck
And finally, In most of those books written about malabar where in the Syrian Christians aka Marthoma Nasranis are mentioned they are being presented as a people having the best features, especially their lighter skin tone and many suggest that ONLY Brahmins have a lighter skin tone or feature that these pariahs.
But you suggest otherwise. And you says we are Dravidians. What about you ? See what I have mentioned above. ‘Mookkilla Rajyathu Murimookkan Rajavu’ isnt it ? So if The Dravidian Nasranis were historically the lightest people where you belong ? Wouldnt you be an Australoid then ? Andamanese ?.
Anyway I see that you view the tern Dravidian with contempt. But to me it looks like you are speaking with contempt of your ancestors. Should I explain why ? May I ask one question ? How come the heathen became farer (you claim so) ? Is it not because of what I suggested yesterday ?
Barbosa gives a very detailed study of the Malabar Customs. And from what I have seen in there, I would call it nothing less than ‘Racial Whitening’
Yes! the whole Malabar community, with the exception of Namboothiris, Nasranis, Mappilas & the Pariahs were likely subjects of Racial whitening.
And I feel disgust in your hurry to excommunicate those of your own community who werent so lucky enough to undergo that ‘racial’ upliftment.
It is likely that the proofs that I bring from books written by the European writers over the past several centuries would be termed ‘fabrications’ or ‘writings by misinformed authors who had no idea of Malabar’ by these aspiring Kshatriyas. So I have here for you none other than SHANGOONNY MENON.
Book – History of Travancore from the Earliest Times
Author – P. Shungoonny Menon
Page 103
Context – Mugal Sirdar Attacking Travancore (venad) in 1680AD
“Though the Sirdar did not attempt to convert the Hindus, he still insisted up on Nairs adopting Mahomedan customs, and they were compelled to do so.
Some of these customs the SUDRAS still retain as useful and convenient.
The customs thus forced up on the SUDRAS who reside between Varkalay and Velavancode….”
Not enough ? Satisfied ?
So in kerala there were
1. Kshatriya
2. Samantha Kshatriya
3. SUDRA KSHATRIYA aka MALAYALA Kshatriya
Now, let me quote DR. KP,
“They ridicule and pooh-pooh these insane claims, ignoring historical and demographic evidences”
Dr.KP, you are great!
Appapan ,
Give him referances from his beloved masterpiece S.N Sadasivan’s “Social History of India” then his mouths will be shut automatically.
Appapan ,
Today I saw the older posts as I thought TJ deleted those …you said it Appapan …I suspect after your description of Yeshurathnam’s facial features ,that octogenarian got mad like a wild boar or jackass that he is using pseudo names and fake i.d’s to create a tension in here ……if so, he has an acute mental disorder….I apologize if I knowingly -unknowingly insulted a caste when counterclaiming on that octogenarians post.
SSSShe….Yeshu Sir ..Thankalkku veroru panniyum ille????..Kashtam…Be a human ..Grow Sir Grow …Veruthe oru degree thulachu alle????
After reading Capt. Vadakayil’s blog (which is a tad more colorful than this blog!) I certainly hope my ancestors were not Nambudiris. http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot......-ajit.html
AVARNA S Menon,
Manusmruti says All are born SUDRA, but by learning the VEDAS they attain a higher status and they become DWIJA or twice born after learning VEDAS, that is the second birth.
DWIJA (Brahmin, Kshatriya & Vaisya ) were required to learn the VEDA.
Did the Nairs learn any vedas ?
Infact the Nairs were never allowed to lern vedas. None of them ever did.
AVARNA, boasting can be injurious to heath, at least from a longer perspective.
“They ridicule and pooh-pooh these insane claims, ignoring historical and demographic evidences”
Aparna Menon,
You said in an earlier comment:
“In fact I like Syrians than Nairs. They are role model to all other communities in Kerala……….Nairs and Nambudiris have a mindset that certain professions are not suited for their aristocracy. ……..This is the reason why Nair people who were once most aristocratic caste in Kerala, have declined to backwardness.”
You are describing yourself to the nth degree. The focus of your comments are to question the heritage of Syrian Christians and to exalt yours and your ilk.
Re your comments about my family history, I have never claimed to be one of the descendants of those converted by St Thomas – frankly, it is inconsequential to me. Even the family history on our family website qualifies what is provable with documentation and what is based on oral history and tradition.
Perhaps it is the focus of people like you on their purported “ancient” history and antecedents that has caused the “decline to backwardness” of your community as you put it.
If you looked at our family website, you would see links for several family members who have achieved considerable reputations. Barrister George Joseph, my grandfather, was prominent in the independence movement. You can also read this blog entry about his relationship with Kamaraj:
http://www.josephclan.com/tjblog/?p=1184
Pothan Joseph who was one of the most prominent journalists of his time and considered by some to be the doyen of Indian journalism.
My brother George Gheverghese Joseph, is internationally acclaimed in the field of multi-cultural mathematics. In fact, he was asked by Kerala’s Education minister to help establish the Kerala School of Mathematics. You can google his name and find hundreds of links relating to his work.
There are others who are part of the younger generation who have also made their mark.
One of the striking contrasts between the US and India is that many Americans take pride in publicizing their humble roots and how they have been able to achieve extraordinary success. They talk with pride and gratitude how their parents came here and worked as maids or in other menial jobs to give their children opportunities. Contrast this with your focus and that of others like Yeshuratnam whose emphasis is on their ancient roots and purported status despite their “decline to backwardness”.
Aparna,
Re -“Yesterday I had a telephonic conversation with Vijay (Vijaya Varma), who is my relative and General Secretary of Kshatriya Kshema Sabha. He said he knows each and every families in KKS personally. I asked Vijay if they give membership to Rajputs and he responded like “No way, there are thousands of Marwari people residing in Cochin. They come and go. Their roots are not known. We can’t accept them into this. This is a family club for Royal families in Kerala.”
Very well manipulated/and cooked up statements yes KP aka Men-on Avarna ..?????
-Marwaris????Now what is the connection/relation between a Marwari (basically baniyas/trading community ) have with Kerala Rajputs and Kerala Rajputs are different KP aka Aparna Sir .
-And about the membership of a Rajput, you can contact the organisation and ask them whether some families have a rajput lineage or a rajput past . Or are some Rajputs married to Kerala Kshatriyas and whether they have a rajput line of succession ok.Your questions should be same as what i told you to ask.But you should be genuine.
And below i am giving evidence of the Kerala Rajputs (though not 100% correct as when compared to the history explained by my father and grandfather )
you can click the below link as I could trace that you have no info available on the Kerala Rajputs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meenachil_Kartha
Dr. KP claims Syrian Christians are the chief consumers of beef
“Central Kerala is the abode of a major chunk of Syrian Christian population. Let us see the food habits of the Syrian Christians of central Keralam. No doubt, Syrian Christians are no exception to the universal Christian food habit of non-vegetarianism. The Syrian Christian’s specialty to beef is a very popular phenomenon. A large-scale cow slaughter is taking place in Central Keralam and the chief consumers of it are Syrian Christians (both Kananaya and Saint Thomas). The ancient beef eating community, prior to the arrival of Christianity, was Parayas (Candalas) of Keralam.”
So when did they attain this Paraya status ?
Asiatic Reserches, Volume 7, published in the year 1808 has an ‘Account of the St Thome Christians the Coast of Malabar’ By F WREDE where in he says this
“I have been assured by Padre Pavony a well informed Ex Je fuit now at Palghaut cherry who was a long time as missionary amongst the St Thome Chrijfians that many of them preserve till now the manners and mode of life of the Bramins as to cleanliness and abstaining from animal food and that even he himself had been obliged to adopt the same regimen in order to gain credit amongst them”
Dr Avarna S (for Sudra ?) Menon,
“They ridicule and pooh-pooh these insane claims, , ignoring historical and demographic evidences”